Curse

UnChosen · Nov 14, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Ya. And if people are not forced to learn, they never will learn, and will stay crappy players forever.

Before Perma SF ever existed people already had years to "learn", and yet it is still like this. Maybe Anet just don't understand their target audience very well?

Most new players I talk to say GW is the hardest RPG ever just because their "firebolts" (flare) can't one hit KO and "rape monsters"....and apparently these people are the majority. I even over heard a random guy in post-searing ascalon saying he's "mislead" in that this game should be labeled a strategy game and not a RPG :P

As for me, the only thing I care about is actually playing an ONLINE game without being forced to go with AI, repeatedly solo farm or trying to find the 1% of good guilds. If it mean giving the 99% idiots crutches then so be it. I have more fun playing with with SF nubs than having a balanced group screaming at me to "heal better" after a "pro" mesmer ran ahead to hex monsters. To be honest, some areas deserve to be "abused" with SF just because the rewards are absolute crap for the effort involved. *cough* dungeons *cough*.

MithranArkanere · Nov 14, 2009, 11:06 AM // 11:06

The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.

I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.

Abedeus · Nov 14, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.

I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.

"If you don't like it, don't play it" - Stupid parrotty idiot quote.

Yeah, I know it's sad.

upier · Nov 14, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Tank? If SF was limited to tanking, it would fall in the same category as Dolyak Signet and it would not be a problem. But it's not limited to that.
If you want to clear an elite area in record time, SF.
If you want to solo a mission by running to the end and beating one guy, SF.
If you want to solo a dungeon by running to the end and beating one guy, SF.
If you want to pay someone to play your game for you, SF.

But nothing about that says you can't improve.
Even before SF improving in PvE didn't mean being able to complete something that wasn't completed before. It meant completing something that countless people before you already completed - just being more efficient at it.
And even with SF, there will be people and parties that suck at it and there will be those that excel. (Just that sucking at it won't mean you fail it - but it will mean you do something a few minutes slower.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Thank you for pointing this out. One balance metric is the risk/reward balance. Clearly, with SF, the risk is not only smaller than with basically any other build, the reward over time is also greater since it's so fast. It's obvious that SF is unbalanced.

As I have argued in some other thread, the problem is that the amount of grind is completely out of touch with the reality of the game.
And something as insane as SF, that is completely out of touch with all other options, IS in touch with the reality of the game.
If this amount of grind should be kept in the game - it's not SF that is too good. It's everything else that is too bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

But the game doesn't demand that you reach GWAMM any more than it demands that you reach Legendary Hero or get a Zhed minipet. On the other hand, skills like SF making GWAMM generally available makes it feel like achieveing it is demanded (it's the simple concept of apparent social baseline; "everyone else is doing it", even when most don't).

And the result of this?
People playing the game.
When you have a bunch of unattainable goals in the game - why would people continue playing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

So yes, it will help, because if an elementalist that has available all skills of the game can't enter a team for anything, anytime, then we have a serious problem.

I have an assassin, I have the skills and could have the equipment to make a permanent SF assasin, but I REFUSE to be another frakking Speed Clearer wearing the horrible obsidian armor and the even more horrible chaos gloves.
I want to PLAY the game, and play it with the characters I want to, not follow fads and be shackled by gimmicks.

MOMMY!
Those mean boys won't play with me!
MAKE THEM PLAY WITH ME!11!!

Abedeus · Nov 14, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And the result of this?
People playing the game.
When you have a bunch of unattainable goals in the game - why would people continue playing?

Who said people continue to play? My f list has been empty for a year or so. Once in a while during a holiday event there is a "surge" of 5-6 people online out of 40-50.

Quote:

MOMMY!
Those mean boys won't play with me!
MAKE THEM PLAY WITH ME!11!!

Quit trolling. His point is valid. When in an online game you are required to have an Assassin, and 9 other professions are only good as secondaries, to even get into a team, there is something seriously wrong. You might as well delete other professions in PvE.

Reformed · Nov 14, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The last +999 teams that went to do Shards of Orr required me to have an assassin, my guild members won't go any other way, and I refuse to go just as leecher while the assassins make it. I want to finish it playing it. H/H are no good for this one, and I only want to make it with my elementalist.

H/H works fine but SoO is a very poorly designed dungeon reminiscent of Ebony Citadel (Mallyx). You can optimize a build to curbstomp the dungeon itself but Fendi is brutal. Go the other way around and the larger groups that add in the Illusionists/Archers might eke out a win against you. Shoot me a PM and I'll be happy to discuss strategy with you, this should be a piece of cake on an Ele.

upier · Nov 14, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Who said people continue to play? My f list has been empty for a year or so. Once in a while during a holiday event there is a "surge" of 5-6 people online out of 40-50.

Did these people stop because they achieved ALL goals, or did they stop because the goals that were left were not achievable?
My problem isn't people quitting because they did it all.
My problem is people quitting because the goals that are left are almost impossible to reach.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Quit trolling. His point is valid. When in an online game you are required to have an Assassin, and 9 other professions are only good as secondaries, to even get into a team, there is something seriously wrong. You might as well delete other professions in PvE.

A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.

What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.

HawkofStorms · Nov 14, 2009, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.

What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.

The point is the build shouldn't exist in the first place.

upier · Nov 14, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The point is the build shouldn't exist in the first place.

The point is that the GOAL that is achieved by running this build shouldn't exist in the first place.
But as long as it does - I am in favour of tools that help achieve this goal faster.

Fril Estelin · Nov 14, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The point is that the GOAL that is achieved by running this build shouldn't exist in the first place.
But as long as it does - I am in favour of tools that help achieve this goal faster.

It's not solely about achievability upier, a challenge still has to exist.

P.S.: if Dreamwind replies to my quote, then this thread will start going down :P

upier · Nov 14, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It's not solely about achievability upier, a challenge still has to exist.

You feel that maxing out Luxon wouldn't be a challenge if instead of 10 mil donated faction you'd have to donate 2 mil?
Or opening 2k chests wouldn't be a challenge?
Or IDing 2k golds?
Or if max sweets/booze/party would be 2k?
Or if the GWEN titles didn't max at 160k but at 80k instead.

I am not saying to give everything for free to anyone that installs the game.
I am just saying that goals that require the equivalent of completing the game a few 10s of times in a game such as GW SCREAM for shortcuts. So instead of having to cater to those shortcuts - let's remove the reason why people would want the shortcut!

Fril Estelin · Nov 14, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You feel that maxing out Luxon wouldn't be a challenge if instead of 10 mil donated faction you'd have to donate 2 mil?
Or opening 2k chests wouldn't be a challenge?
Or IDing 2k golds?
Or if max sweets/booze/party would be 2k?
Or if the GWEN titles didn't max at 160k but at 80k instead.

I am not saying to give everything for free to anyone that installs the game.
I am just saying that goals that require the equivalent of completing the game a few 10s of times in a game such as GW SCREAM for shortcuts. So instead of having to cater to those shortcuts - let's remove the reason why people would want the shortcut!

No it's not really a challenge in my mind, it's beyond a challenge: it's a grind. This is what happens when the "length" become more important than the "depth". It's difficult for sure, requires tenacity, dedication and patience (actually with the few modifications Linsey introduced over the years, eg books and VQs, it's not as insane as before), but everyone can do it provided you put the time and a relatively modest amount of efforts. GW never, ever screamed for anything, unless you consider you have to be able to access every single point in the whole totality of maps (i.e. DoA, HM, but also AB, GvG...) and be able to reach every single "number" (i.e. title). Players do "scream" because they're maybe obsessed with titles? It's like looking at your speedometer and screaming that you're not reaching the end of it at full speed.

(but if I understand you correctly, you're saying you want title removed and that's acceptable; I'd rather have them, but not displayable)

Abedeus · Nov 14, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Did these people stop because they achieved ALL goals, or did they stop because the goals that were left were not achievable?
My problem isn't people quitting because they did it all.
My problem is people quitting because the goals that are left are almost impossible to reach.

They got bored. The only things you can "achieve" and not just "grind the living hell out of" are PvP titles, but then you need a living guild. And we know how hard that is to find.

Quote:

A team is running a specific build.
The team asks all candidates that want to join the team to run a specific build.
A candidate refuses to run the demanded build.
The team refuses to accept the candidate.
What you are suggesting is that the team should be forced to accept the candidate that does not want to run what is asked of him.

What if 95% of the teams in UW/FoW want SF only? It means that you MIGHT get into a team, but you'll have to wait 3 hours and then pray on your knees till you scrape them that nobody will leave mid-way.

What I am suggesting is nerf the skill. This is worse than the Trinity - at least there you could go in with an Elementalist, Monk, Warrior, Ranger (instead of the Elementalist), Dervish (as a tank), Ritualist (support for the Ranger), Necromancer (BiP, SS, MM, support), Mesmer (instead of Elementalist), and probably even an Assassin with DB+MB, nuking monsters.

Now you MUST have an assassins with only ONE build they tell you to go with. I understand the need for a one build. But not a situation where 9 out of 10 classes are obsolete in any situation.

Reformed · Nov 14, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

What if 95% of the teams in UW/FoW want SF only? It means that you MIGHT get into a team, but you'll have to wait 3 hours and then pray on your knees till you scrape them that nobody will leave mid-way.

UWSC is for all intensive purposes dead. If you can't work into a FoWSC group (the Manlyspike one), which is vastly more diverse than UWSC ever was, you are doing it wrong. The fact that 600/smite is now back in the running for active UW farmers should speak volumes about what the changes accomplished. I don't see any of these miracle balanced PuGs springing up anywhere or general clears for that matter and we are up almost 2 weeks into this. It shows plain as day that people will follow the path of least resistance. This little experiment should also give you a good idea of what will happen if they continue to make changes. Either a new tank swaps in as a counter or the farmers move on to greener pastures.

Anonymous IXl · Nov 14, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Shadow Form is the WORST Skill In The Game. Almost every item in the game that used to be considered "High End" Are considered common garbage these days. There are really only 5 High end skins in the game now and it makes these items get over-farmed as well. It also creates a largely un-balanced market,

KZaske · Nov 14, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

UWSC is for all intensive purposes dead. If you can't work into a FoWSC group (the Manlyspike one), which is vastly more diverse than UWSC ever was, you are doing it wrong. The fact that 600/smite is now back in the running for active UW farmers should speak volumes about what the changes accomplished. I don't see any of these miracle balanced PuGs springing up anywhere or general clears for that matter and we are up almost 2 weeks into this. It shows plain as day that people will follow the path of least resistance. This little experiment should also give you a good idea of what will happen if they continue to make changes. Either a new tank swaps in as a counter or the farmers move on to greener pastures.

Very true.

I miss the days when PuGs would form and go after a goal. These zones were ment to be Elite, players needed to understand how thier skills worked and how to work as part of a team or they failed. For example; warriors had to wait for the monks & eles in thier team to recover engery before charging forward. Rangers played high guard spreading discontent in the mobs and rezing the all too often over zealous warrior and some times the entire group. I remember when we use to designate a runner for each and every PuG. It was the runners job to running away when most of the group was down, wait for the mobs to clear the area and rez the dead. The runner was usually a ranger or a monk. At the time; team work was the path of least resistance. Solo play was possible, but not easy. You needed to take your time when using henchies. Today, everyone wants to get whatever they are doing done as quick as possible, they don't want to take the time to build a PuG and adjust builds to support the team. They want to go now and get it done as quickly as possible.
To me the decline of team work can be marked by the introduction of Heros which allowed a player to have a full team without any other real people, the over use of SF made every 'elite' area possible without much effort.
I am not saying that heros are all bad, they are not. I am not saying that SF is all bad, it is not. I just miss the team work that use to be an all too rare part of the game.
In short, the popularity of the current abuse of SF can be attributed to each and every one of us. Some for paying the outragious prices they want, other because of greed. The greed of wanting to get every elite thing in the game as quickly as possible. Is that bad, not really. I just don't see how paying someone else to do my job as a player is good for me, the game or anyone else.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 14, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

not just "grind the living hell out of" are PvP titles

No, PvP titles are pretty much the epitome of that.

Bryant Again · Nov 14, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZaske

Very true.

I miss the days when PuGs would form and go after a goal. These zones were ment to be Elite, players needed to understand how thier skills worked and how to work as part of a team or they failed. For example; warriors had to wait for the monks & eles in thier team to recover engery before charging forward. Rangers played high guard spreading discontent in the mobs and rezing the all too often over zealous warrior and some times the entire group. I remember when we use to designate a runner for each and every PuG. It was the runners job to running away when most of the group was down, wait for the mobs to clear the area and rez the dead. The runner was usually a ranger or a monk. At the time; team work was the path of least resistance. Solo play was possible, but not easy. You needed to take your time when using henchies. Today, everyone wants to get whatever they are doing done as quick as possible, they don't want to take the time to build a PuG and adjust builds to support the team. They want to go now and get it done as quickly as possible.
To me the decline of team work can be marked by the introduction of Heros which allowed a player to have a full team without any other real people, the over use of SF made every 'elite' area possible without much effort.
I am not saying that heros are all bad, they are not. I am not saying that SF is all bad, it is not. I just miss the team work that use to be an all too rare part of the game.
In short, the popularity of the current abuse of SF can be attributed to each and every one of us. Some for paying the outragious prices they want, other because of greed. The greed of wanting to get every elite thing in the game as quickly as possible. Is that bad, not really. I just don't see how paying someone else to do my job as a player is good for me, the game or anyone else.

I believe that where we are now with the game is the result of general dismay to a few vital things: 1. Poor enemy AI, and 2. Poor enemy build structure.

In WoW I remember a moment where I was able to solo a raid boss as a lock for like a few days. Blizzard *hates* that, they hate it when you're able to accomplish a task with a very limited selection of classes.

This is something I was hoping to see in Guild Wars, but ANet didn't take much advance to encourage a balanced game. If enemies were configured to ignore certain build combos then farming wouldn't be nearly as effective as it is now. If you were in a full and balanced team group, what would you do against an SF sin? Well for one everyone wouldn't be wasting all their spells on him. This is also why h/h is so successful: being "good" in PvE is easily achieved, and hence why soloing is such an accessible route. No need to micro-manage anything your heroes are doing - which is what *should* be required - just aggro a mob, spam SY!, loot, repeat.

But I had a pretty good feeling that balanced and smart play was forever dead when I saw them remove the AoE scatter. That right there was one of the biggest pieces of evidence of the route that ANet was heading down with PvE. The PvE/P skill split made it worse.

If ANet wants to fix PvE, it's going to take a LOT more than just fixing the thing that's the most overpowered. Enemy behavior and build structure will need a massive overhaul. Otherwise we'll be stuck in a sea of gimmicks and unintelligent play.

Abedeus · Nov 14, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

No, PvP titles are pretty much the epitome of that.

Well okay, but with PvP titles you need a bit of skill. You can't just spend 2 weeks doing books over and over like you would to get rank 10 in a PvE title, or run around a map with TextMod and touching the edges.

Especially for Champion.

Fril Estelin · Nov 14, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Good idea Bryant: we need all AI to have an "SF" mode, where they'd nail the sin the best they can

.